📢 Happy Tuesday and welcome to today's AMA with Hand Eye Society’s Len and Jordan, who have generously agreed to spend the next hour with us answering questions about their organization and new workshop program! Thank you so much for being here and sharing your insights with the Work With Indies community!
To kick things off, could you tell us a little more about yourselves, your journey into games, and your favorite sweet? - Katherine
🖐️ Len: My name is Len, and I am the current Executive Director of Hand Eye Society. I also work as the Community Manager for Kitten Cup Studio. HES is a not-for-profit located in Toronto, Canada focused on showcasing, celebrating, and exploring games as an artistic practice.
For me, I went to university for the 'Digital Future" and have made a wide array of playful media from immersive experiences, LARPS, videogames, and art installations. From there it was sort of a meandering path between random and sporadic work to working more regularly with the two companies. I think I will go with fruit pie?
👁️ Jordan: So I'm Jordan Sparks, I'm the Director of Technology and Workshop Coordinator at the Hand Eye Society. I manage our tech and work with Len to plan out our many events, festivals, and streams. Outside of that, I'm a Multimedia Artist, Designer, and Educator, teach game production at Humber College and am currently making a game about teaching politics. I went to University for New Media and after I finished that I got a Masters in Media Production.
My journey into games started by accident. There was a game club in Uni that I went to occasionally. I went on the last day one year on a whim and they asked me to sign a form so the club didn't get dissolved so they'd have enough executives. I don't think they expected me to take the job seriously, but I did and started making a bunch of community events and workshops. From then on, I kinda just fell into games and stumbled further into the rabbit hole on my own and I've been taking a lot of games opportunities ever since. Oh and favourite sweet, sour candies.
That could be a movie!! Speaking of origin story, what sparked the origin of Hand Eye Society? - Katherine
🖐️ Len: HES started as a meet-up event between local developers, back in 2009. It was incorporated as a not-for-profit in 2010 by Jim Monroe, Miquel Sternberg, and Mare Sheppard, with a few other founding members. From there it grew into what it is today. I am actually the 3rd ED, so we're all different people from those who started it!
It seems to me like the field of games is very elusive - there aren't really 'defined paths' for getting into it. Based on your backgrounds, do you agree? What advice do you have to people that are not currently in the field for finding their way in? - Orion
🖐️ Len: 100%! I know very few game developers who went directly from school to development, but this is biased given my own path through art and maker spaces. I think it's important to keep a wide array of interests as a lot of inspiration for games comes from bringing things from other sectors/mediums. Understanding what you want to do, and how you can fit into things is important if you are looking long term, but it is also something you can wander into. There's a lot that goes into games, and there are equally as many ways to enter the industry
👁️ Jordan: Absolutely, there isn't a singular games journey and everyone is different. I feel this is something that's pretty integral to games as a field because it's already a medium stuffed with knowledge from so many other different fields. At Hand Eye Society, one of our core beliefs is that anyone can make a game and that any background can be useful. I've taught thousands of kids across Ontario how to make games from many communities and I've seen people in fields completely separate from games, such as nutrition and fashion make games as well. That diversity is the strength of games.
I think for those who are having trouble finding their way into games, you may not have found your community or tribe yet, but I think it's only a matter of time. Just keep trying. Hand Eye is always looking to help people on their games journey and the aforementioned workshops we're offering are designed to do just that.
[.c-insight]💡 Editor’s Note: I will triple up on this. If you ask 100 people how they got their start in games... well, half of them might say Work With Indies (I wish! One day!), but the reality is that you would get near 100 different answers. [.c-highlight]There is no path. So, don't look for one. Pave your own.[.c-highlight][.c-insight]
Speaking of workshops, are these workshops only open to HES members or residents of Toronto / Canada? Or, are they accessible to everyone? - Nate
👁️ Jordan: All of our Workshops are accessible to anyone. We welcome you to attend online wherever you are: Homepage
I see these workshops start at 6 PM EST, but I couldn't find an end time. How long are these workshops expected to last? - Nate
👁️ Jordan: Workshops tend to last between 2 - 3 hours depending on the content and how the workshops go.
What makes games as an artistic practice different from plainly "making games?” - Orion
👁️ Jordan: That's a tough one and I think it kind of depends on your intent. Anyone can make a game. Make a cube jump. Make a model run, etc. However, as an artistic practice, you usually want to focus some sort of meaning, expression, or purpose into your work, just like any form of art. To me, that's the difference, but I'm not high and mighty to think it makes one better than the other. So long as you’re passionate about it and enjoying the process, that's what matters.
🖐️ Len: I think this is more of a spectrum than a hard cut-off as all game design requires some artistic insight. I've spoken to lots of folks about their games as art, and I think generally there's a few ways that folks feel more like artists is when they aren't focused on growing, they work at their own speed, or they accidentally stumble into their game being commercially viable. But lots of artists want to make money, just like how lots of business-minded people want to make art.
Which, in your opinion, is the most important trait a person trying to enter game dev must have? - Alexander
🖐️ Len: An interest outside of games. I think folks who draw from a lot of inspiration are the most successful, as game development requires a lot of out-of-the-box thinking. I think a lot of folks who've had other careers or entered the games industry later always bring a ton to the table. But things like hobbies, books, interests, all allow you to get out of game-design head and approach problems in a new way
👁️ Jordan: In my opinion, Communication Skills, and I know a lot of my students are sick of me saying that. Communication encompasses so many things. How you communicate with your colleagues and teammates as well as how you communicate things to the player through all the different affordances games have. This is something that I think gets lost in our drive to make things look cool and master art, programming, etc. If no one understands you or the game then what is it all for? If you have a problem and no one understands it, then how can they help you. That's important to realize and have a communications strategy.
Right now, my course at Humber is 13 weeks about how we communicate through games, so I do think it's important.
Which game(s) moved you the most in terms of its artistic expression and why? - Lynnezevillain
🖐️ Len: The game I played that started me on this path is Everyday The Same Dream. It was the first time I had played a game that was focused on telling something, rather than achieving something. Heads up that the game deals with suicide.
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👁️ Jordan: Easy, the game that started me on my personal games journey and the direction I'd design my games: Loneliness by Jordan Magnuson. It's a game about dots. It only lasts a few minutes. Yet it expresses so much in that little time and that game changed me because it showed me that games could be engaging and impactful and yet, not actually be fun like Mario or such. I make all my students play this game and I recommend that you do too.
How do we collectively elevate the artistic expression of games, specifically indie games? (Also please define "artistic expression" according to what you think - I'm curious) - Orion
🖐️ Len: I think we often find ourselves in discussions of games as being apolitical, or otherwise separate from the collective artistic canon. As a media, they express a lot of collective thoughts, experiences, and life experiences of those who make them. Understanding games within the context of the culture and the people who made them helps open up the conversation for them as works of art rather than only commercial.
👁️ Jordan: This is something I'm pretty passionate about because I kinda did my thesis on this. I think we need to examine why we make games and their purpose and what they can express. There's a saying I say to students that games need to be "engaging", not necessarily "fun" because there's a wide spectrum of feeling that we can engage with through the interactivity of games.
A romance novel can touch your heart. A Horror Movie can scare you. A Documentary can teach us something about the world. Why do we rarely have this conversation about games and focus on fun? I think if we collectively try to make more expressive and meaningful games, we can curb the expectation that games are merely toys and that takes an examination of what we want to make games for and what we want it to express to our audience. That's my take on it anyway.
Launching off this, what's the balance or difference between community and individual expression in games (in HES' opinion, if any)? In general, I see a lot of individualistic tendency in the American culture. But I know that games are a medium that extends into other countries, where there are more community-driven tendencies. What I mean to ask it how these different cultural expressions can come across in games (or maybe examples, if you've seen some). Is it all part of expressing that person's individual experience of life in the medium of games? - Orion
🖐️ Len: I think to me it comes across most in how the studio is run, folks in a collective make very different types of games generally but in any studio, the decision can be to collaborate intensely on experience. At Kitten Cup Studio, for example, we collectively created characters who reflected our own experiences and built them up from there.
What prompted Hand Eye Society in creating this workshop program? - Katherine
👁️ Jordan: Hand Eye Society used to regularly run workshops across Ontario to try and get people into games at libraries, universities, and other venues... THEN COVID HAPPENED.
We've been wanting to revive that, but we don't feel that going back to in-person is an option as it doesn't feel safe and the pandemic isn't over, so we shifted to online to keep doing our workshops just like our other initiatives. We also realize that doing things online can open things up for people who may not be close by in Toronto, so we want to grow the community spirit and continue to get more people into games.
Awesome! Do you happen to have any success stories of your prior workshops resulting in people getting into games/studios being formed/games getting made? And if so, what do you see in some of these "successful" students that you don't see in others? What sets them apart and enables them to follow through (aka what kind of patterns might we be able to mimic in our own journeys)? - Nate
🖐️ Len: Our largest workshop program we run in collaboration with Ontario Creates, is specifically about starting studios. I would say what is most successful IMO is when folks consider all of the ways in which being the head of a studio will change them, if that's their structure, their policies, their contracts, and delve into that in a deep way.
[.c-insight]✨ This resonates with me... a lot. Many of us get into games to, well, make games. Not necessarily to create a company or become an employer, a manager, or be responsible for someone's professional and career development. But... that is often what happens, particularly if we are lucky enough to find some success. And those things aren't easy. They are entire jobs unto themselves.[.c-insight]
🖐️ Len: Being a boss is a big life decision! I frame starting a studio as a lifestyle choice; you end up taking on a very specific role in which others’ livelihoods are in your hands. It's incredibly important you interrogate yourself and focus on why you want to run a studio.
👁️ Jordan: Yep, being the boss is a big job, but someone's gotta do it. It can be hard to adjust to it, but if you can master it, it's quite rewarding.
Speaking of bosses... I hear one of you might be hiring?? - Nate
✨ Len: hehehe yeah Kitten Cup is hiring! (the position has since closed!)
Does the Hand Eye Society often have the need for/make use of volunteers to coordinate and assist at events, or is it mostly done by specific paid workers/team members? - Sheila
👁️ Jordan: Volunteers are a great force at Hand Eye and help us out a lot. We welcome volunteers.
🖐️ Len: This has changed over COVID. HES has a paid membership which is split into a few tiers, one of which is that volunteering for any arts-organization for 10 hours you get a free membership. As we've been online, there is less requirements from assistance from the public but we do have folks help out with things like modding for events.
👁️ Jordan: I've seen a number of people in the community over the years take Hand Eye workshops or go to their events and go on to make more games or make it big. In fact, I'm technically one of them (in progress).
Before I took my current role, Hand Eye Society invited me to show off one of my games back in 2016 at 2 of their events. I expected nothing of it, but both events got me interviewed by local big and small journalists and I got put in several news publications and broadcasts. That kind of cemented my professional reputation post-grad as people still talk to me about that. I also took a business development program we have called Fund Futures aimed at teaching business skills to run your own studio. I got grants because of that program and am now making a game with my studio using the skills I learned because of that program. Now I've spearheading that same program for the past 2 years.
Given the rise of Covid and continued inability to do in-person stuff safely, are there any places or events you'd suggest for Game Devs in Toronto to meet and connect with other folks in the community? (Online included of course!) I remember Power Up bar used to have all sorts of events pre-pandemic for instance. - Sheila
🖐️ Len: We're currently not planning anything in public for 2022, and I think a lot of other folks are in a similar place. All of the stuff I know is running like Dirty Rectangles is still online. That being said though if you're in Toronto I am always down to go out for walks!
We also run our own Discord server.
👁️ Jordan: Yeah, we realize it's hard and since we used to thrive on the in-person community aspect, that was a real loss to us. However, we've spent the past few years trying to find ways to counteract that. For example, we have a Hand Eye Society Discord and a Twitch channel which we've been regularly trying to use to interact with and serve the community as well as get people collaborating and socializing.
We've also invented our own platform called FEST which has been used for not only our online festivals, but other festivals such as TCAF, Long Winter, and CANZine. We're looking into more ways to connect people online despite the distance so we can connect more safely and unite as a community.
What kind of game that you haven't seen yet, would you like to see developed going forward in the industry? Is there a realization of the sort of things that you wish more games had based on your experience with workshops and teaching game making? - Lynnezevillain
🖐️ Len: I want more games that don't have violence as a mechanic, or I guess that interrogate violence in a more robust and human way. I am much more interested in playing games that people make about their own lives, or what influences them rather than gun/colonialism being an unexamined series of mechanics
👁️ Jordan: A lot in the Games For Social Change field, which I specialize in and try to encourage people to make. Games that are properly researched and try to affect public opinion through a game story/experience. Currently, I'm making one about Canadian Politics because I just don't see that anywhere. I want people to unlock the most impactful nature of games.
What advice do you have as a spearheading lead of a team developing a game, for example, the current project you are making with your studio? Additionally, do you have any advice for someone just starting out in a similar team? - Lynnezvillain
👁️ Jordan: I could rant a lot about this and if you want to pick my brain on this privately, you're welcome to, but If I could give you 3 major tips I'd say:
- Establish how everyone is going to communicate and keep track of tasks.
- Make sure you have a GDD with as much detail as you can pack into it, no matter how rough, and practice explaining it to people.
- Find Money before you hire people and learn to budget things well for a serious project.
What's it like to run a not-for-profit as opposed to a for-profit, specifically in the field of game-making? - Orion
✋ Len: Not-for-profits have a lot of responsibilities to the public that a for-profit doesn't. As we receive money all of our finances must be released to the public every year at the Annual General Meeting, in which the membership is informed about changes the organization is doing/programming plans and so on. We have a Board of Directors who oversee all decisions, and serve as the guide for the org as a whole. So everything I do is approved by the Board, which then is acted upon. The hardest part really is that as an arts-organization, we fight for videogames to be recognized as art, meaning that over the years a lot of advocacy work has been done to get granting bodies to see us as a legitimate arts organization.
We have 3 levels of government funding which are municipal, provincial, and federal. Games are only recognized on the provincial level as being media art. There's a TON I can talk about in terms of the back end of things, but it is generally actually harder to game games on government money than it is off of it for this reason. A lot of that is that when people don't know or understand something, it's hard to justify funding it. Often people who make films are more likely to be making games off of gov money than game designers for this reason, despite you know... that not really making sense. Not-for-profits in Canada also function differently than in the US, meaning we are not a charity so we don't get to give tax credits to people who donate to us.
As a final question, how could each of us individually contribute to helping our culture see video games as a legitimate form of art? - Orion
👁️ Jordan: I would say to be the change in the industry you want to be in the world. If you want to make games as art, make games as art. However, there are also other ways to do this. I teach a lot and I'm always trying to challenge my student's assumptions on what games can or should be so talk to others about how games can be art as well and they can form their own perspectives. Then we can take over the world transform the perception of games.
Len: Personally, I think it is acknowledging the fact that games have context in media. I know it sounds silly but given the pervasiveness of the thought that games exist outside of culture this is the first step. How can we talk about games as art if they're not culture? Their worlds shape us and give meaning, change us, and can have a huge impact on who we are as people. That all means something!
😄 Any last words of wisdom and poetry before we wrap up? - Katherine
Len: Follow Hand Eye Society on Twitter! We will have some BIG announcements soon!!
Jordan: You can follow the Hand Eye Society on Twitter here. This is the workshop page if any of you are interested in learning from us!
One last thing! Be sure to sign up for our newsletter on our website! We send out newsletters of all things happening in the Toronto games community as well as some international stuff as well, so keep an eye on it.
[.c-insight]You can find Jordan on Twitter here and his creative work here. You can find Len on Twitter here.[.c-insight]
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